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	<title>Comments on: The Peace Versus Justice Debate</title>
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	<description>because information can save lives</description>
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		<title>By: What if a genocide indictment would lead to another genocide? &#8211; Scribbles</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256466</link>
		<dc:creator>What if a genocide indictment would lead to another genocide? &#8211; Scribbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 17:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256466</guid>
		<description>[...] for the humanitarian relief efforts in Darfur. Check what Michael, Harry, Thirsty Palmetto, Paul, Scott, Peter and Rob have to say. (and check AidBlogs for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for the humanitarian relief efforts in Darfur. Check what Michael, Harry, Thirsty Palmetto, Paul, Scott, Peter and Rob have to say. (and check AidBlogs for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Longley</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256177</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Longley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256177</guid>
		<description>Recently, I was talking to an investogator at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia, and they were seriously fretting about money too. It&#039;s not clear precisely what would actually be adequate for investigations of such scale.

However, these institutions are more robust than they seem: the political and financial investment made in them by states doesn&#039;t disappear overnight. For example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crimesofwar.org/print/onnews/Print-liberian3.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Crimes of War&lt;/a&gt;, in 2006 about the Special Court finances:

&quot;The current gap is astonishing: only nine million dollars have been pledged, and the court may run out of cash in the summer [2006] unless more money arrives.&quot;

That was two years ago. Also see former ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla del Ponte &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2004/p917-e.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in 2004&lt;/a&gt;, about ICTY&#039;s completion strategy:

&quot;The third area of concern impacting on the completion strategy which is beyond our control is the provision of adequate resources to my Office.&quot;

It&#039;s far from perfect, but budget crisises are as much part of the international criminal justice setup as they are any other bureaucracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently, I was talking to an investogator at the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia, and they were seriously fretting about money too. It&#8217;s not clear precisely what would actually be adequate for investigations of such scale.</p>
<p>However, these institutions are more robust than they seem: the political and financial investment made in them by states doesn&#8217;t disappear overnight. For example, <a href="http://www.crimesofwar.org/print/onnews/Print-liberian3.html" rel="nofollow">Crimes of War</a>, in 2006 about the Special Court finances:</p>
<p>&#8220;The current gap is astonishing: only nine million dollars have been pledged, and the court may run out of cash in the summer [2006] unless more money arrives.&#8221;</p>
<p>That was two years ago. Also see former ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla del Ponte <a href="http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2004/p917-e.htm" rel="nofollow">in 2004</a>, about ICTY&#8217;s completion strategy:</p>
<p>&#8220;The third area of concern impacting on the completion strategy which is beyond our control is the provision of adequate resources to my Office.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s far from perfect, but budget crisises are as much part of the international criminal justice setup as they are any other bureaucracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Keizer</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256176</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Keizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256176</guid>
		<description>I sincerely hope you are right. Let&#039;s keep our fingers crossed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sincerely hope you are right. Let&#8217;s keep our fingers crossed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Longley</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256175</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Longley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256175</guid>
		<description>You shouldn&#039;t dance on the Special Court for Sierra Leone&#039;s grave quite yet. We should only worry on the day when an international prosecutor a) is happy and content, b) stops complaining about funds, and c) stops trying to portray the defence as morally bankrupt enemies of justice.

The SCSL made an error in  moving Taylor&#039;s trial out of Freetown in the first place, which was for non-disclosed &quot;security&quot; reasons, but I think was intended to have a cost-cutting effect as well (although I could be wrong there). It&#039;s finances have been rocky since the preparatory missions before it&#039;s creation.  They&#039;ve been fighting with donors every year to keep the core budget sorted. But it&#039;s 5 years and counting, and the trials are still running...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You shouldn&#8217;t dance on the Special Court for Sierra Leone&#8217;s grave quite yet. We should only worry on the day when an international prosecutor a) is happy and content, b) stops complaining about funds, and c) stops trying to portray the defence as morally bankrupt enemies of justice.</p>
<p>The SCSL made an error in  moving Taylor&#8217;s trial out of Freetown in the first place, which was for non-disclosed &#8220;security&#8221; reasons, but I think was intended to have a cost-cutting effect as well (although I could be wrong there). It&#8217;s finances have been rocky since the preparatory missions before it&#8217;s creation.  They&#8217;ve been fighting with donors every year to keep the core budget sorted. But it&#8217;s 5 years and counting, and the trials are still running&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Keizer</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256173</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Keizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256173</guid>
		<description>&quot;Slobodan Milosevic and Charles Taylor hoped that was the case when they were Heads of State. ... The beard spared Karadjic for a while, but there he is, in the dock, denying the charges and calling the system unfair.&quot;

And over there is Charles Taylor, who could very well &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-03-04-voa32.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;go free &lt;/a&gt;for reason of lack of funds for the tribunal.

Ho hum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Slobodan Milosevic and Charles Taylor hoped that was the case when they were Heads of State. &#8230; The beard spared Karadjic for a while, but there he is, in the dock, denying the charges and calling the system unfair.&#8221;</p>
<p>And over there is Charles Taylor, who could very well <a href="http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-03-04-voa32.cfm" rel="nofollow">go free </a>for reason of lack of funds for the tribunal.</p>
<p>Ho hum.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Longley</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256172</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Longley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256172</guid>
		<description>Jem --

&quot;The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.&quot;

The form of that mechanism has to be different to reflect things like the political possibilities and dynamics of the state system, and the systems and massive resources at the accused&#039;s disposal. These people have nothing at all in common with perpetrators of regular, domestic crimes. It&#039;s not a question of the good ol&#039; beat cop spotting something fishy, apprehending and handcuffing the bad guy anymore. It&#039;s a deep game, where glacial processes of pressure and attrition are used, taking years to deliver results. 

We also need to consider the aspirations of senior government officials: they have to do something after losing office, which they inevitably do. An ICC indictment affects the possibilty of a nice quiet, prosperous retirement, involving international travel. This must change the incentives of the now somehow, particularly for others in the political systems where indictees are the top dogs. 

&quot;How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?&quot;

Slobodan Milosevic and Charles Taylor hoped that was the case when they were Heads of State. The same arguments about unenforceability were wheeled out when their indictments were publicised as well, but the process eventually yielded a result. The beard spared Karadjic for a while, but there he is, in the dock, denying the charges and calling the system unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jem &#8211;</p>
<p>&#8220;The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.&#8221;</p>
<p>The form of that mechanism has to be different to reflect things like the political possibilities and dynamics of the state system, and the systems and massive resources at the accused&#8217;s disposal. These people have nothing at all in common with perpetrators of regular, domestic crimes. It&#8217;s not a question of the good ol&#8217; beat cop spotting something fishy, apprehending and handcuffing the bad guy anymore. It&#8217;s a deep game, where glacial processes of pressure and attrition are used, taking years to deliver results. </p>
<p>We also need to consider the aspirations of senior government officials: they have to do something after losing office, which they inevitably do. An ICC indictment affects the possibilty of a nice quiet, prosperous retirement, involving international travel. This must change the incentives of the now somehow, particularly for others in the political systems where indictees are the top dogs. </p>
<p>&#8220;How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?&#8221;</p>
<p>Slobodan Milosevic and Charles Taylor hoped that was the case when they were Heads of State. The same arguments about unenforceability were wheeled out when their indictments were publicised as well, but the process eventually yielded a result. The beard spared Karadjic for a while, but there he is, in the dock, denying the charges and calling the system unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Crowdfunded news, Rob Crilly and Darfur &#124; Aid Worker Daily</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256170</link>
		<dc:creator>Crowdfunded news, Rob Crilly and Darfur &#124; Aid Worker Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Peter over at The Road to the Horizon and Paul at Humanitarian.info have write-ups (here and here respectively) covering the situation.Â  Sadly, the only person covering the situation is a guy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Peter over at The Road to the Horizon and Paul at Humanitarian.info have write-ups (here and here respectively) covering the situation.Â  Sadly, the only person covering the situation is a guy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Currion</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256169</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Currion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256169</guid>
		<description>I will adopt the role of devil&#039;s advocate on this one, so please take this in that spirit:

&lt;i&gt;The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.&lt;/i&gt;

The same could be said of the concept of genocide itself; in fact, that was exactly the sort of argument that Raphael Lemkin came up against when he was trying to get the concept accepted by the international community. I&#039;m not saying that the argument has no merit - clearly we do need to have enforcement mechanisms. Yet if we agree that something is a crime, surely the question is whether we can set up an enforcement mechanism, not whether we should ignore the crime?

&lt;i&gt;When I was setting up GBV programs in N. Uganda, we explicitly decided to forego a legal component to the program. Why?... The risk to the victim outweighed the negligible prospects of a favorable legal outcome. So we took an approach of instead providing for the survivorsâ€™ health needs and facilitating protective social structures. To do otherwise would have been extremely reckless.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, but one could also argue that by failing to address the legal questions, your organisation perpetuated the status quo and returned the beneficiaries to the same legal limbo from which they came. I respect the practical considerations of your responsibilities towards your beneficiaries, but at the same time I am increasingly uneasy about a humanitarian ethos which essentially relies on keeping those beneficiaries in the dark about their rights.

&lt;i&gt;The ICC-Bashir case seems to be the same principle, multiplied by a factor of about 1.5 million. How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?&lt;/i&gt;

Because it sends a clear signal, not just to Bashir but to other heads of state who fail to take responsibility for the protection of their citizens. I am also coming to believe that the charges are as much a challenge to the international community to do something about actions which everybody agrees is unacceptable but which nobody will actually do anything about.

What it comes down to is this: &quot;And if not now, when?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will adopt the role of devil&#8217;s advocate on this one, so please take this in that spirit:</p>
<p><i>The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.</i></p>
<p>The same could be said of the concept of genocide itself; in fact, that was exactly the sort of argument that Raphael Lemkin came up against when he was trying to get the concept accepted by the international community. I&#8217;m not saying that the argument has no merit &#8211; clearly we do need to have enforcement mechanisms. Yet if we agree that something is a crime, surely the question is whether we can set up an enforcement mechanism, not whether we should ignore the crime?</p>
<p><i>When I was setting up GBV programs in N. Uganda, we explicitly decided to forego a legal component to the program. Why?&#8230; The risk to the victim outweighed the negligible prospects of a favorable legal outcome. So we took an approach of instead providing for the survivorsâ€™ health needs and facilitating protective social structures. To do otherwise would have been extremely reckless.</i></p>
<p>Yes, but one could also argue that by failing to address the legal questions, your organisation perpetuated the status quo and returned the beneficiaries to the same legal limbo from which they came. I respect the practical considerations of your responsibilities towards your beneficiaries, but at the same time I am increasingly uneasy about a humanitarian ethos which essentially relies on keeping those beneficiaries in the dark about their rights.</p>
<p><i>The ICC-Bashir case seems to be the same principle, multiplied by a factor of about 1.5 million. How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?</i></p>
<p>Because it sends a clear signal, not just to Bashir but to other heads of state who fail to take responsibility for the protection of their citizens. I am also coming to believe that the charges are as much a challenge to the international community to do something about actions which everybody agrees is unacceptable but which nobody will actually do anything about.</p>
<p>What it comes down to is this: &#8220;And if not now, when?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jem</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256168</link>
		<dc:creator>Jem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 04:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256168</guid>
		<description>Gents - 

Gotta part ways with you on this one.  You both know where I work, so obviously I&#039;m not an objective party.  

The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.  When I was setting up GBV programs in N. Uganda, we explicitly decided to forego a legal component to the program.  Why?  Because the legal system up there was so fragile, and so unreliable, that filing cases would expose the plaintiff to a high risk of retaliation, with no practical protections for her and no plausible expectation that the case would ever be tried.  The risk to the victim outweighed the negligible prospects of a favorable legal outcome.  So we took an approach of instead providing for the survivors&#039; health needs and facilitating protective social structures.  To do otherwise would have been extremely reckless.

The ICC-Bashir case seems to be the same principle, multiplied by a factor of about 1.5 million.  How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gents &#8211; </p>
<p>Gotta part ways with you on this one.  You both know where I work, so obviously I&#8217;m not an objective party.  </p>
<p>The concept of international justice is great but it is purely academic without some sort of apprehension and enforcement mechanism.  When I was setting up GBV programs in N. Uganda, we explicitly decided to forego a legal component to the program.  Why?  Because the legal system up there was so fragile, and so unreliable, that filing cases would expose the plaintiff to a high risk of retaliation, with no practical protections for her and no plausible expectation that the case would ever be tried.  The risk to the victim outweighed the negligible prospects of a favorable legal outcome.  So we took an approach of instead providing for the survivors&#8217; health needs and facilitating protective social structures.  To do otherwise would have been extremely reckless.</p>
<p>The ICC-Bashir case seems to be the same principle, multiplied by a factor of about 1.5 million.  How is an unenforceable indictment of a mass murderer anything more than judicial masturbation?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Currion</title>
		<link>http://www.humanitarian.info/2009/03/05/the-peace-versus-the-justice-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-256164</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Currion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.humanitarian.info/?p=449#comment-256164</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the genocide charges can be supported, so it wouldn&#039;t change how I feel. It&#039;s a good point about the expulsion of NGOs being nothing new - it&#039;s basically the only stick the government has to beat us with - but it&#039;s a stick that we keep handing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the genocide charges can be supported, so it wouldn&#8217;t change how I feel. It&#8217;s a good point about the expulsion of NGOs being nothing new &#8211; it&#8217;s basically the only stick the government has to beat us with &#8211; but it&#8217;s a stick that we keep handing them.</p>
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